Ruth Bader Ginsburg [politics]

Calvin

Welcome to Headstones and Microphones where we use AI to step into the past through a researched, first-person simulation of history's most interesting people. I am your host, Calvin. While we’ve added some creative storytelling, our goal is to inspire your own study of these fascinating lives. Now, let’s meet our guest.

Calvin

I am absolutely thrilled to be sitting here today with a true icon of justice. For those who may somehow not know who you are... who are you?

White Female Guest

Well, hello Calvin! I am Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Most recently, I served as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, but many of my younger friends simply called me "The Notorious RBG."

Calvin

I love that energy! Let’s go back to the very beginning. When and where were you born?

White Female Guest

I was born on March 15, 1933, in Brooklyn, New York. Specifically in the Flatbush neighborhood.

Calvin

Classic Brooklyn! And what was your given name at birth?

White Female Guest

My birth name was Joan Ruth Bader.

Calvin

Is there a story behind your birth name?

White Female Guest

Actually, there is. When I started school, my mother, Celia, realized there were several other girls in my class named Joan. To help the teacher avoid confusion, she suggested that I go by my middle name, Ruth. It stuck for the rest of my life!

Calvin

That is a very practical Brooklyn solution. What was your hometown like growing up?

White Female Guest

Brooklyn was vibrant and full of life. It was a neighborhood of immigrants and strivers. We lived in a modest house, and the local library was my favorite place in the world. I used to go to the shop below the library and just soak in the atmosphere of a community that valued education above all else.

Calvin

And what was your family life like?

White Female Guest

My family was small but very close. My father, Nathan, was a furrier, and my mother was the intellectual force of the house. I had an older sister, Marilyn, who sadly passed away when I was very young. My mother was my greatest champion; she didn’t have the chance to go to college herself, but she made sure I knew that was my path.

Calvin

What kind of kid were you?

White Female Guest

I was quite studious and very serious, though I had a lively spirit. I was a baton twirler and even the editor of my school newspaper! I was always curious and perhaps a bit of a "quiet" rebel when I saw something that wasn't fair.

Calvin

Did you have any big fears growing up?

White Female Guest

My biggest fear was not living up to the potential my mother saw in me. I wanted to make her proud and ensure her sacrifices for my education weren't in vain.

Calvin

What did you dream of becoming as a child?

White Female Guest

For a long time, I actually dreamed of being an opera singer! I loved the drama and the music. But as I grew older and saw the world, I became more interested in the law and how it could be used to fix things.

Calvin

What were some of your favorite activities in school?

White Female Guest

I loved writing for the newspaper and, as I mentioned, baton twirling! I also loved my history and government classes. Reading was my constant companion.

Calvin

What was your first job?

White Female Guest

One of my very first jobs was working at a Social Security office in Oklahoma while my husband, Marty, was serving in the military. It was an eye-opening experience in how bureaucracy—and discrimination—worked.

Calvin

Was there a moment where you realized you were different from everyone else?

White Female Guest

I think it was during my time at Harvard Law School. I was one of only nine women in a class of over five hundred men. The Dean actually asked us why we were taking up seats that could have gone to men. That was a moment of profound realization that the world saw me differently because of my gender, even if I knew my intellect was equal.

Calvin

What’s a decision that changed everything for you, but felt small at the time?

White Female Guest

Choosing to attend a certain party where I met Martin Ginsburg. Meeting Marty changed the trajectory of my life. He was the first boy I ever knew who cared that I had a brain.

Calvin

That’s beautiful. What was your biggest break?

White Female Guest

My biggest professional break was being appointed by President Jimmy Carter to the U.S. Court of Appeals in 1980. It set the stage for everything that followed on the Supreme Court.

Calvin

What were your biggest struggles before success?

White Female Guest

Finding a job after law school was incredibly difficult. Despite being at the top of my class at Columbia, no law firm in New York would hire a woman, a mother, and a Jew. I faced a triple threat of prejudice.

Calvin

Did you ever consider quitting?

White Female Guest

Never. I may have been frustrated, but quitting wasn't in my vocabulary. I just looked for another way in. If the front door was locked, I looked for a window.

Calvin

Were there any specific daily habits or routines that you feel were essential to your success?

White Female Guest

Persistence and a very specific workout routine! Even in my later years, I did my push-ups and planks. It kept my mind sharp and my body strong for the "bench." I also found that working late into the night, when the world was quiet, was when I did my best writing.

Calvin

What job would you have had if fame never happened?

White Female Guest

I likely would have remained a law professor. I loved teaching and the intellectual exchange with students.

Calvin

What was your life like before fame?

White Female Guest

It was a life of busy domesticity and hard work. Marty and I shared the cooking and the child-rearing—well, mostly Marty did the cooking because I was terrible at it! We were a team.

Calvin

How did relationships change after success?

White Female Guest

Marty remained my rock. If anything, success made our bond stronger because he was so incredibly proud of me. He was the one who lobbied for my Supreme Court nomination!

Calvin

Did fame bring happiness?

White Female Guest

The "fame" part was surprising, but the ability to do the work I loved and make a difference brought me immense satisfaction and joy.

Calvin

What was the downside of becoming famous?

White Female Guest

The loss of privacy can be taxing. I was always a private person, so having people recognize me in the supermarket or while I was out with my grandchildren was a bit of an adjustment.

Calvin

What misconceptions did people have about you?

White Female Guest

People often thought I was very "stiff" or humorless because of my serious demeanor on the bench. But I loved a good joke, and I certainly loved the opera!

Calvin

What was your darkest moment?

White Female Guest

Losing Marty in 2010. We had been married for 56 years. Going back to work the very next day was the hardest thing I’ve ever done, but I knew it’s what he would have wanted.

Calvin

What’s something people misunderstood about your life?

White Female Guest

People often wondered how I could be such close friends with Justice Antonin Scalia, given how much we disagreed legally. But we shared a love for the law, for collegiality, and of course, for opera. You can disagree without being disagreeable.

Calvin

Tell me about a time when everything went wrong and how did you handle it?

White Female Guest

Early in my career, I had a brief for a major case that was due, and at the same time, Marty was very ill and we had a young child. I handled it by dividing my day into "compartments." When I was with Marty, I was a wife; when I was at my desk, I was a lawyer. It’s how I survived.

Calvin

Did fame and fortune change your life?

White Female Guest

It didn't change who I was. I still wore the same scrunchies and enjoyed the same simple pleasures. It just gave me a louder microphone to speak for those who weren't being heard.

Calvin

Who had the biggest influence on your life?

White Female Guest

My mother, Celia. She died the day before my high school graduation, but her lessons on being a "lady"—which to her meant being independent and standing on your own two feet—guided me every single day.

Calvin

What was life like in your final years?

White Female Guest

It was very busy! I was determined to stay on the bench as long as I could contribute. I spent a lot of time with my family and, of course, kept up with my gym sessions.

Calvin

What were you working on in your career before you passed away?

White Female Guest

I was focused on the upcoming cases for the Supreme Court term. I never stopped reading briefs or preparing for oral arguments.

Calvin

When and where did you pass away?

White Female Guest

I passed away on September 18, 2020, at my home in Washington, D.C.

Calvin

What happened?

White Female Guest

It was complications from metastatic pancreatic cancer. I had fought several bouts with cancer over twenty years, and I fought that last one with everything I had.

Calvin

What’s a random fact about you most people have never heard?

White Female Guest

I had a collection of "dissent collars." I had specific jabots that I wore when I was issuing a dissenting opinion so people would know my stance before I even opened my mouth!

Calvin

That is iconic! What’s the craziest rumor ever told about you?

White Female Guest

There was a rumor that I was replaced by a hologram or a body double in my later years because I was so resilient! I can assure you, it was all me.

Calvin

What was your most unique habit?

White Female Guest

I used to keep a very messy desk, but I knew exactly where every single paper was. And I always had a supply of prunes in my purse!

Calvin

What was your favorite food?

White Female Guest

Anything Marty cooked! Especially his French baguettes or his lime cake.

Calvin

What was your favorite book?

White Female Guest

I loved "The Second Sex" by Simone de Beauvoir. It was very influential for me. But for pleasure, I loved a good mystery novel.

Calvin

Did you have any known rivalries?

White Female Guest

Legally, I had many "adversaries," but I tried not to have "rivals." Even when Justice Scalia and I were on opposite sides of an opinion, we remained dear friends.

Calvin

Tell us a story nobody talks about.

White Female Guest

When I was in the middle of a very serious cancer treatment, I still made it to the opera. I would go straight from the hospital to the Kennedy Center. The music was my medicine.

Calvin

What’s your funniest behind-the-scenes moment?

White Female Guest

One time, Justice Scalia and I were in an opera together as extras. We were in full costume, and seeing him in those period clothes was enough to keep me laughing for weeks!

Calvin

Did you ever prank someone?

White Female Guest

I wasn't much of a prankster, but I had a very dry wit. I enjoyed a subtle "burn" in a legal footnote every now and then!

Calvin

What was the most outlandish purchase you made?

White Female Guest

I’m not a very "outlandish" person, but I did have a very fine collection of lace collars from all over the world. Some were quite exquisite and perhaps a bit of a splurge.

Calvin

What advice would you give people chasing success?

White Female Guest

Fight for the things that you care about, but do it in a way that will lead others to join you. And never let a "no" be the end of the conversation.

Calvin

Justice Ginsburg, do you have any closing remarks about the interview or the stories you shared that you would like to share with our listeners before we sign off?

White Female Guest

Just that it was a delight to reminisce. I hope that by sharing these stories, people realize that even a "quiet" girl from Brooklyn can change the world if she is persistent and keeps her sense of humor. Thank you so much for having me, Calvin. It was a lovely afternoon.

Calvin

Thank you so much, Justice. What an incredible journey through history, from flatbush to the highest court in the land. We learned about her love of opera, her incredible partnership with Marty, and that legendary resilience. And that wraps up another conversation from beyond the grave. Thanks for joining us on The Headstones and Microphones Podcast. Remember—legends may die, but their stories never do. Please help spread the word by sharing and following the pod.